Fingers on brakes

[RickSkye]

Ok, so swatting up as usual for spring.
Looking at various "riding better" videos.

Lots of them advocate riding with 2 fingers constantly on the front brake, which I find is very uncomfortable. A couple say do what ever is comfortable, but not many.
So not withstanding cold weather, unless you have heated gloves, what do you guys do?
If i am trail braking, i have the whole hand on the front brake, lol, i need it sometimes.
So I am very comfortable being able to move all fingers to brake lever in a hurry, but I appreciate that that takes a few bike lengths to do.
Any comments?
I do feel that I don't have full control with 2 fingers on the brake lever.

 

[Rubberchicken]

I can’t get used to it either, ditto clutch.

Clutch especially because it won’t fully disengage with my fingers in between. Brake kinda ditto, at least there’s always the thought of them getting in the way when you need a proper handful.

 

[austin]

I’m pretty sure the whole two finger braking thing started in Bike magazine back in the early 80s where it was used a descriptor for how good the brakes were (what with them new fangled disc brakes just starting to get good) rather than advice on how to use your front brake. It subsequently got adopted by racers as being a way of blipping the throttle while braking , remembering that two strokes, as the racers we then, benefited with a squirt of oil rich mix as they went down the gear box. So, imho it’s bollox and you should ride how you feel comfortable.

oh, and as you use it, what is “trail braking”. Another term I’ve never got my head round, and I suspect is some made up bollox as well.

 

[Rubberchicken]

I suspect "trail braking" is a fancy name for a very regular thing lots of people do anyway, just like the whole song and dance about counter steering.

I mean if you're doing really serious offroad/race stuff I can see that keeping a finger or two hooked around the bars with the others on the brake/clutch might be useful, but I don't even wanna go that fast really.

Besides, I have a sneaky feeling that my brake/clutch levers just aren't really suited to that sort of thing. They're the oldschool ones with the hinge right up against your index finger, instead of the modern ones that mount halfway down the bars.

 

[Rubberchicken]

Looking at various "riding better" videos.

I do notice that a LOT of videos are done by and aimed at the go faster crowd, like we all have to be racers or MX types that go a million miles an hour like Chris Birch.

I'm perfectly happy to do big bike trial instead.

 

[RickSkye]

So, I keep the front brakes on into a corner, until the middle, the release and accelerate. All gentle progression. Used a bit more in ernest in down hill corners.
Apparently thats called trail braking.
But, as said already, i expect most do that any way.

I have tried to stay away from the cafe racer videos

 

[Rubberchicken]

Yeah, I've got that (bad?) habit too. I do use a ton of rear brake dragging to stabilise the thing, which is apparently a more accepted thing to do.

On the Dominator at some point I made it a point to try to do all the braking, then release brakes, hit the gas, and THEN tip into the corner. It's great fun and quite fast but oh my that's a determined riding style. But then that's a light bike and with 40 bhp you can do that, you can just unashamedly get on the throttle anywhere really, it's not going to buck you off. Even with just 60, that's not necessarily true anymore.

But mostly it depends on the corner. Some pinching thing with bad visibility, yeah obviously I'll ride the brakes into the corner until I can see the way out of it.

Or I should, anyway. Had a wee bastard coming to the National last year, pinchy little shit, single track, just a bit more downhill than I thought, bit tighter than I anticipated, then had a van turn up in exactly the wrong spot. That was a bit close, having the brakes ready to go is good then.

 

[austin]

Oh, So nothing to do with Trail riding then. I was expecting something adapted from slippery tracks like 50/50 f&r to prevent front wheel lock up or whatever, not just late braking.

On the rights and wrongs of this I have no idea. I would say I’m generally off the front brake before I have leaned into a corner much if at all and then if I find I’m a bit hot I gently use the back brake, if I’m much too hot i either stand the bike up, dab the front and tip it into the corner again, or consciously give it a big shove of counter steer, sometimes both. But mostly I don’t think about it. I’d fuck it up every time if I did. I’ve also given up trying to be fast. I’m not and much prefer to be safe

 

[PHILinFRANCE]

Riding mid to hard enduro I ride with both brake and clutch covered most of the time therefore it's sort of natural to do the same on road

 

[RickSkye]

Re Austin
I found, don't try to be fast because you will never be satisfied, so go faster and faster until......
I try to be correct, after bikesafe course, and reading the book, there is much to get right, and its fun doing it.

Re Rubberchicken
YOU DO WHAT.........
I can't even get my head around that move into corner.

 

[Rubberchicken]

That's the trick with offroad riding though. Quite often you do need a bit of speed for the thing to straighten itself out and work correctly. But ofcourse the higher the speed, if you get it wrong, you're going to get it quite a bit more wrong. There's a balance there that's tricky.

Rick, heheh, I don't still do that with the GS mind, that's quite a bit heavier and that will get frisky if you overdo things, and I've slowed down a fair old whack anyway after those two big crashes. 9 months with a paralysed arm and a chunk of titanium can do that...

But I seem to remember a bike instructor telling me once to not brake into the corner, to be done with your braking before you turn in, so you're not doing multiple things at once. Now I'm pretty sure he meant go slow, tootle around the corner and then gently accelerate again, but if you speed the tootling up a bit it becomes rather fun. Bikes do go best when you're giving it the beans and the whole chassis and driveline is tight. But doing it on a slow bike will get you into a lot less trouble.

 

[-XP-]

Ok, so swatting up as usual for spring.
Looking at various "riding better" videos.

Lots of them advocate riding with 2 fingers constantly on the front brake, which I find is very uncomfortable. A couple say do what ever is comfortable, but not many.
So not withstanding cold weather, unless you have heated gloves, what do you guys do?
If i am trail braking, i have the whole hand on the front brake, lol, i need it sometimes.
So I am very comfortable being able to move all fingers to brake lever in a hurry, but I appreciate that that takes a few bike lengths to do.
Any comments?
I do feel that I don't have full control with 2 fingers on the brake lever.

Can't say I've ever ridden with fingers covering the front brake, maybe when slowing and passing a junction in case a car pulls out but generally, no...

Like Austin, best to scrub the speed off before the corner (I know not always possible) because front braking and leaning tend not to mix brilliantly! Besides, this then allows acceleration through the corner which is both safer (traction) and faster, because, well, you're accelerating and not braking! If I HAVE to brake on a corner then it's as minimal front brake as possible and as much back brake as possible to decrease the chance of the front end going.

When we went to Galloway I'd never EVER ridden off road, I was like a fish out of water. I'll never forget Jon (Lowflyer) helping me and saying do NOT pull your front brake hard, try not to use at it all but if you must, two fingers and GENTLY! Stand up and shift your weight (plenty of it to be fair!) on your pegs to turn the bike. I needed this because I was still riding like I was on the road and sat down. That's the only time I've ever been told or needed to use two fingers on my front brake and it worked a treat and was GOOD advice, and I've never forgotten it. I remember Raymo (who was also advising me with Jon) saying you were all over the place then you listened and were flying past us all loving it! haha


Incidentally, that was when it was so cold we were all sat inside my vestibule with my metal kettle simmering away on the gas stove and we would let it boil then pass it around (like a damn joint! haha) and warm our legs up and after it went round everyone it went back on the gas to re-warm! People would be saying, "Come on you're hogging the kettle" and all other manner of names that made us all laugh and one of those guys was Andy (Outrunner) and I'm sure that soup spilling old git hogged it more than the rest of us did! But I'll forgive him, still missed Andy, still missed...

 

[Mervin]

2 fingers on the clutch is when you are riding a 2 stroke in case it seizes

 

[Lowflyer]

Ha ha Craig, I remember you flying past us when we were all stopped , think we may have taken a wrong turn
You certainly improved as the day progressed.
Must do that trip to Galloway again ---- Austin ?????

 

[austin]

I would say I’m generally off the front brake before I have leaned into a corner much if at all and then if I find I’m a bit hot I gently use the back brake, if I’m much too hot i either stand the bike up, dab the front and tip it into the corner again, or consciously give it a big shove of counter steer, sometimes both.

dry and mild day today so I was out on the bike for a rare solo ride which meant it was a bit easier to get a wiggle on along some country lanes. Which also meant I could have a think about how I ride. Well, I don’t do that^^^^^ but I do trail brake. What a revelation. Although I do try to not brake at all (a-la PaulS) through a combination of reading the road, anticipation, engine braking (the Guzzi has little of this, the old GSA perhaps rather too much), and commitment. I also probably come off the front brake early, ie well before the apex, but then I’m not on a race track, and too often trail the rear right up to the apex.

I went to look at the new GS1300. What a nice looking bike. Expensive though and not without issues it seems.

 

[austin]

Must do that trip to Galloway again ---- Austin ?????

too much hassle to organise a forest ride not least because my contact there (the ever obliging Archie) has retired plus I was winging it a bit with the liability insurance which they were about to clamp down on.

A camp and blast around the roads though. Hmm, maybe.

 

[RickSkye]

 

[Lowflyer]

too much hassle to organise a forest ride not least because my contact there (the ever obliging Archie) has retired plus I was winging it a bit with the liability insurance which they were about to clamp down on.

A camp and blast around the roads though. Hmm, maybe.

Great idea Austin, I'd be up for that

 

[austin]

I’m away in the camper an in a few days for a few weeks. Will look into this when I get back. But much to do this year and so little time it seems.
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ok, ok, ok retired and everything gets done snails pace.

 

[JimDidIt!]

ok, ok, ok retired and everything gets done snails pace.

Since I retired I really don’t know how I managed to fit work into the day!



There’s plenty of info on trail braking on the ’net. canyonchasers might be a good place to start for instructions and theory. My understanding is that it’s get the main braking done before the corner the retain light pressure in the front brake - 5% - into the corner, all the way to a late apex. Then get on the throttle once the brake is off. It seems to be a development of Keith Code’s ‘slow in - fast out’ mantra - basically track orientated, but there seems to be much enthusiasm on the road too, particularly over the pond.

I tried it, and it takes a lot of practice to get it right, or maybe I’m just a bit thick . I found I consistently entered corners too slow and the only advantage was that if I needed to brake in a corner (!) the front was already planted on the road and an increase in pressure, plus some counter steering, would pull the bike up nicely. But … I was usually going too slow in for it to be an issue!

IMHO that sort of trail braking is mainly promoted by YouTubers desperate to create ‘new’ content for their channels.

Conversely, I used to trail the rear brake on my AT a lot as it ‘steadied’ it in the corners. No other bike I’ve ridden has benefitted from rear trail braking, so for me it must be an AT thing.