HID Kit
- Thread starter Alba
- Start date
Whealie said:
Someone should tell BMW. It seems they are fitting something that doesn't exist
But as Ian says the document is clearly aimed at cars. One of the most telling paragraphs is
NOTE: The information in this document is a summary of DfT’s understanding
of what the law requires. However, ultimately the interpretation of the law is a
matter for the courts based on individual facts of any particular case. You are
therefore advised to consult the relevant legislation and, if necessary, seek
independent advice.
So basically they don't know and it would take a court case to prove and if they really believed the law would back this view they would have presented a test case by now..
This just sounds like a body of Civil Servants trying to take a bunch of regulations about one thing and construe them in such a way they that they infer a law about another.
Boris said:
Aftermarket ones, apologies. I doo not now about the specifs BMW lamps but the DfT says:
"The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.
However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply with European type approval regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These approvals relate to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (lighting installation on the vehicle)."
So, presumably, BMW's HID lamps on the specific bikes on which they offer them have met the EU standards. Retrofitting a self levelling system - especially on a 23 year old Honda Africa Twin - is not an option.
Whealie said:
While there may or may not be a self levelling system on the K1300GT. There is certainly no washer fitted.
Clearly on pre 98 bikes it is extremely unlikely that the headlights have been tested with a view to HID but post 98 designed headlight units may well have as I can't really see manufacturers maintaining two sets of certification for new designs. Although I have no evidence to prove this I suspect that the R1200GS headlight has been certified for HID if for no other reason that to fit the burner a hole needs enlarging in the rear of the unit and BMW rather nicely emboss a circle the exact size and location where the cut needs to take place. Not evidence I accept but a bit to handy to be coincidental.
hotbulb
Active Member
When the BMW 6 (K1600) first came out, the press made a big "thing" about the HID headlight, and the very sophisticated self-levelling mechanism employed. It "self-levels" fore-and-aft, as in the standard car-type,but also from side to side to compensate for the bike "banking" around bends.So it was able to get type-approval.... don't know what happened about the "washer" requirement,though! Presumably, the same SL mechanism would be fitted to other Bavarian bikes where HID is now an option. But that's not to say that retro-fitting an HID burner to another bike would be legal - after all, in strictness it's illegal to use a vehicle built after some date or another if any of the obligatory light bulbs don't have an E-marking.
What puzzles me is that there seem to be very few restricions on the use of LED bulbs,many of which have extremely powerful light outputs,and can be VERY dazzling,as much so as any HID.
What puzzles me is that there seem to be very few restricions on the use of LED bulbs,many of which have extremely powerful light outputs,and can be VERY dazzling,as much so as any HID.
It is possible that the requirement for a headlamp cleaning system is for aftermarket lamps only and not required by the original EU standard.Boris said:
The DfT says: "The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval." It clearly wishes it could
It can make life hard for aftermarket sellers though.The main thing in all of this is that it is illegal to fit HID kits to existing headlamp units and the units were not designed for the HID bulbs.
If you fitted them not knowing this (though if you are reading this you do no it, obviously), and told your insurance broker and they agreed to insure you (and you have evidence that you did tell them etc), the insurer cannot repudiate any claim (Gocompare.com will simply list it as replacement headlamps because online quoting systems are not sophisticated enough, in my opinion, to properly underwrite risks).
The reality is that HID lights in the wrong lamp units produce light that could blind oncoming drivers and cause then to crash (into you or fellow bikers) and produces dark patches in some lines of riding that may affect your ability to see.
hotbulb said:
I guess those with an interest just havent caught up with LED technology yet.
Poorly manufactured and fitted HIDS are a problem. The worst offenders are ones like the H4 where the original reflector is designed with 2 separate tungsten elements in mind and you effectively replace it with one "element" and some sort of deflecting mechanism. It can never really be in the optimal postion and will cause scatter.
Single burner lamps can successfully be replaced with HID and if a quality burner is used the light source should be in exactly the same place as a tungsten filament and in theory you should end up with the same beam pattern. Of course any errors in the design or manufacture of the reflector will be greatly exaggerated with a much brighter lamp so what may be acceptable scatter with a tungsten lamp may be unacceptable with a HID.
Retrofit LED lamps on the other hand could be a nightmare as instead of a single point of light they are made up of many LEDs all clustered along a stalk so by inference many of them will be in the wrong place.
Whealie said:
I agree with just about everything you say but the problem is there doesn't seem to be any accessible register of what headlight units have been approved for HID use. Just because the manufactured sells the bike with tungsten filament lamps doesn't necessarily mean that they never had the unit approved for HID use.
It doesn't matter. It is illegal to fit aftermaket HID bulbs into existing units. Full stop. The unit may have been designed and approved for HID but only with a self-levelling kit. You must replace the whole unit with one designed for HID that includes a mechanism for self-levelling and self cleaning.Boris said:
Whealie said:
I disagree
What you are saying is that even if the unit was designed for HID. The unit had self levelling properties built in but the manufacturer chose to sell in the UK market with just tungsten lamps fitted it would be illegal to retrofit HID burners. The self same burners that may be offered elsewhere or even here but on a higher spec model.
I don't believe you. What law exactly would you fall foul off? You are making sweeping statement that just aren't true in exactly the same way as the authorities have above and yey they are not prepared to even test them in court so
to you.
"In the Department for Transport's (DfT) view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern."
Whealie said:
Yes but you are quoting a government departments VIEW as law and even then the quote above fails to address my previous question.
What you are inferring is if as stock I have headlight part number 123 fitted with self leveller 456 also fitted and I want to use HID lamp 789 I would have to buy new headlight assembly which contains replacement part number 123 + 456 + 789 and throw the exact same parts I already have away
Rubbish
This is all very interesting and I'm sure the discussion could run and run. But I'd like to raise a couple of points. Firstly, has this issue of an aftermarket HID kit being fitted ever been brought up in an insurance claim? Secondly, it appears the the authorities (which ever one has jurisdiction this week) are so concerned over the issue that they are sitting on their arses and allowing any Tom, Dick or Harry to flog HID kits to anyone that wants one. I've checked a couple of these sellers and none of them mentions the "legal" requirements for correct reflectors, self levelling or having washers fitted.
On the ones I viewed it mainly said they were sold for off- road use only, but in very small print. One I contacted HIDCity said it was not possible to fit them to a bike for all the reasons we discussed. One firm that was selling them at a bike show claimed Bikesafe recommend them but Bikesafe denied it. ACPO never came back to me on the issue. It's not top priority.Lutin said:
I imagine the reality is that HID lights are, in most cases, far superior and pose little risk. But because a tiny number of cases present a problem or because there is a theoretical problem, the regulations have not caught up.
It has only just been made legal to rip a CD into your iPod. The law is often way behind reality.